Oppo, Teach Me About the 135i

"AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC" (addictedtom3s) 09/07/2017 at 11:30 • Filed to: 135i

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I will admit I am guilty of neglecting the non-Alpina and non-M BMWs. Today while looking at Craigslist during lunch I decided to look at what was for sale with a manual around me and I saw a 135i for sale. That then peaked my interest and I recall people saying they’re among one of the most fun modern BMWs to drive. I then saw one later in the evening. I’m now very hooked.

So what do I need to know about the 135i? How’s the reliability and how’s the maintenance? Also, would I be able to daily it (read: would it be a loyal companion and start every time I need it to)?

jasmits > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 09/07/2017 at 11:39

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No personal experience but I’ve heard nothing but good things about the N54, lots of comparisons between it and the 2JZ. Capable of stupid power and reliable if you mostly leave it be.

Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 09/07/2017 at 11:40

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Reliability is generally fine, but parts costs are typical BMW fare despite the relative simplicity of the car. A lot of this will differ between the N54/55, but the weak points are the high pressure fuel pumps (covered under a 10 year warranty by BMW at this point), turbo failure (know it’s an issue with N54s, not sure on N55s), and valve buildup (plagues all of them to my knowledge, not cheap to have them walnut blasted but some people claim to have some relatively easy DIY methods).

Will absolutely chew through rear tires on account of the negative camber in back combined with no LSD. Clutches are not as durable as I would have liked.

Onto opinions:

- Great powerband, fantastic highway cruiser

- Fairly comfortable once you get rid of the runflats, but still expected more from the ride quality

- Fantastic steering feel, even if communication is a bit lacking

- Way too much goddamned understeer, followed by snap oversteer. The former is just plain annoying, the latter could be lots of fun

I enjoyed mine, but really wish I had spent the money on something more engaging. As far as a daily driver goes, though, they’re a brilliant choice.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 09/07/2017 at 11:44

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I love my 128i. Have never driven a 135i

DrScientist > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 09/07/2017 at 11:45

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sorry i dont have any ownership experience, but i took several of these on extended test drives back in... shit... ‘08, ‘09. they were 2-3 year old cpos and whatnot. and they were excellent.

reminded me of stealing and hooning my dad’s e30 as a 12 year old.

those ‘35s are one of the sweet spots for their “big 6.”

nerd_racing > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 09/07/2017 at 11:48

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I did a ton of research on these before I bought my 2011 128i. The valve buildup on the 135i scared me away. I put a lot of miles on my cars and I would have to get it shelled every couple years. The 128i is just as fun to drive and the power is very usable in everyday driving conditions without getting into instant arrest/reckless driving situations.

Things I would add if I got another one:

NOT SILVER I hated the color of mine after a while.

M sport seats

1M/M3 control arm conversion

1M/M3 Rear Diff Bushings

Aftermarket wheels and tires (18's more than likely)

Slightly firmer adjustable coilovers

Magnaflow Exhaust

3 stage intake with tune (OEM BMW part, little power bump)

I really liked the way my 6MT 128i drove and the power and torque was a lot of fun. The resale value of it dropped like a lead brick after I passed 100k miles though and I traded it in. It also needed bushings all around and brakes and the alternator got oil on it from a faulty filter housing seal and it was failing too. If it wasn’t my daily driver I would have built it for a handling/autocross car with the previously mentioned mods.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 09/07/2017 at 11:49

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Main points are that the engine has things that go wonky (HPFP and possibly turbos, but nothing like the Audi 2.7T eats turbos). N54 direct injection means that you get valve crud to be walnut blasted out.

It’s a BMW, so it eats rear tires for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

One guy that tracked his said the behavior at the limit can be a bit much when it snaps to oversteer. It’s a bit the same as how my Z4 acts, although with more power (My Z4 has the N52 engine in it, so I just have the possible death tick from the lifters which doesn’t really do anything).

They aren’t, well, bad, in any sense of the word, and they will start every time you need it. All you really need to do is keep up with maintenance (which if you are used to American or Japanese cars is a bit of a shock the first few times), and it should be just fine.

That said, I’m going to trade my Mini for a higher powered rear drive coupe, and it’s not a BMW 1er.

E90M3 > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 09/07/2017 at 12:10

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My dad has a 135is, fantastic little car. I would drive one if my income allowed for 2 expensive BMWs. It has the N55 in it, and while it’s supposed to be more reliable than the N54, he had a VANOS issue at like 32k. They all have hydraulic steering, and while not as sublime as the M3's, it’s still a great system. Not sure as far as how expensive maintenance is, I’ve only owned N/A BMWs, I’d assume it’s somewhere between my E92 and E90. Manuals seem to be hard to find, but I really do enjoy driving with the DCT in my dad’s car. It’s also coupled to an M exhaust, so it makes the downshifts sound great.

Textured Soy Protein > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 09/07/2017 at 12:12

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I had a 135is which was basically a loaded 2013 135i with the BMW Performance exhaust and ECU tune for more noise and an extra 20 hp (according to BMW’s official specs, but some folks say BMW sandbagged it a little). It was a fun car. Good brakes, good power, good suspension, awesome steering, great noise.

The main weakness is the open differential combined with torque. It has trouble putting power down in a straight line. If you’re bombing some twisties, putting the traction control in Dynamic mode does a good job of simulating an LSD with brake-based torque vectoring, but that doesn’t help with straight line traction.

It’s a bit narrow and you sit high up in it compared to some coupes. Not a ton of room inside. Back seat isn’t very useful. Cup holders suck, and to use the second cup holder you need to raise the armrest.

The earlier models came with the N54 twin turbo motor and for 2011 they switched over to the N55 single turbo. Similar stock power ratings but the N54 has higher tuning potential mixed with lower reliability of the stock twin turbo setup. With bolt-on mods, pump gas, and an ECU tune, you can get the N54 up to about 415 hp at the wheels whereas the N55 tops out around 375 whp. You can make higher numbers than these on either of the stock turbo setups with things like ethanol mix tunes, upgraded fuel pumps & water/meth injection.

If you’re looking at automatics, the N54 cars have the older 6-speed Steptronic which is kind of sluggish from the factory but can be improved with xHP Flashtool which is an Android app that reflashes the transmission computer. The N55 cars have a DCT. It’s pretty solid. My 135is was a DCT.

I now drive a modified 335xi coupe because my 135is was a fair-weather only car that I supplemented with a Jeep Grand Cherokee. Rather than put snow tires on the rwd, open diff 135is, I sold the Jeep and bought the 335xi, which gets snow tires in winter.

shpuker > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 09/07/2017 at 12:13

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Reliability is decent, maintenance cost is significant, acceleration is phenomenal. If you can try and find a 135is (unless you plan on modifying it a lot). They’re as close to the 1M as you can get without having to spend some ungodly amount of money on a 1M.

E90M3 > nerd_racing 09/07/2017 at 12:16

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M-Sport seats and sport seats are identical for all non-M cars. The seats in my M-sport 328i are identical to the ones in my 128i with a sport pack. I think in the US all the M-sport pack gives you, in addition to the sport pack, is the M-body kid and an abundance of M-badges.

nerd_racing > E90M3 09/07/2017 at 12:39

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Mine had the base manual adjust seats without the lumbar support adjust and no bolstering to speak of

E90M3 > nerd_racing 09/07/2017 at 12:51

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Did you have a sport pack?

AM3R, lost another burner > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 09/07/2017 at 13:01

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I’ve put over 30k on my 335i now. Ask me anything specific. The 1er is very nice, m3 suspension has many swappable components. Do you DIY? If so the car isn’t bad to own. I have had generally good reliability but I got a well maintained Fresh off CPO warranty car with only 1 other owner. Tons of fun to drive, and these cars are fast. Ask away! I love talking about these cars lol.

nerd_racing > E90M3 09/07/2017 at 13:05

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nope, base of the base.

Steve in Manhattan > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 09/07/2017 at 13:12

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Checked w/ brother in law, has identical car. Reliable, dealer repairs somewhat expensive, his is mostly highway miles.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 09/07/2017 at 13:14

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It’s piqued my interest. Not peak.

/yes I’m a pedantic bore/

Feel free to mock.

I have nothing useful to add to this thread. Good luck with your search. I love the idea of a 135i as a ‘stripper 1///M’.

E90M3 > nerd_racing 09/07/2017 at 13:17

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Ah, so you didn’t have the sport seats then.

nerd_racing > E90M3 09/07/2017 at 13:53

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nope. So I guess I don’t need the m pack, just the sport seats.

PG; the scalpel wielder > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 09/07/2017 at 22:42

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Ive owned mine for over 2 years. It’s a good dd that meets rwd, manual, comfort requirements. It’s got back seats for when you need u like a 370z etc. The aftermarket is great for when you do run into issues. It’s fairly easy to work on. Tuning is very cheap and easy with the Android MHD app. I’m close to 380hp at rear wheels with tune, FMIC and downpipes only. The walnut blasting for the carbon build up isnt as scary as it sounds and costs about 400 from an indy workshop. So far I’ve replaced a few gaskets, serptine belts and an ac compressor only. When it does cause me issues I can’t really think of an equivalent replacement. I think it looks pretty with better wheels.

Mine has the optional M performance wheel which makes it really fun as well.

AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 09/08/2017 at 01:41

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Well, shit. That’s an embarrassing typo.

AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC > nerd_racing 09/08/2017 at 01:44

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I was looking at the 128i. It seems they’re harder to find with a manual than the 135i? Or maybe that was just the time I was looking for them in my limited craigslist search. How reliable was your 128i? How many miles did you put on it annually?

AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC > Textured Soy Protein 09/08/2017 at 01:46

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Interesting. How reliable was your 135i? It seems like they’re kind of questionable in terms of reliability? Or is it one of those cases where if you leave it alone and don’t tune it then you’d be okay?

AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney 09/08/2017 at 01:47

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So daily, yes. What about occasional track toy? I’m talking like once or twice a year on the track. Would it still be fun enough to satisfy the craving? Or would it just leave me wanting a more capable M3?

AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC > PG; the scalpel wielder 09/08/2017 at 01:48

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Sounds like you’ve done the walnut blasting? How did you know you needed it? What actually is walnut blasting? Can I DIY it?

AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 09/08/2017 at 01:51

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So are we talking like instant noodles for breakfast, lunch, and dinner bad? Or more than just an oil change bad? I’ve seen M5 and M3 yearly maintenance come out to be 2000 a year so that’s not a shock for me.

AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC > E90M3 09/08/2017 at 01:53

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I was hoping you’d chime in. I thought you had a 135i? Or was it a 128i?

Either way, does the open diff get annoying? Or can you just not tell unless you’re really going for track times?

AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 09/08/2017 at 01:54

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How’s the reliability for your 128i?

I’m not going to lie, up until now I had no idea you owned a car. I thought all you owned were motorcycles.

AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC > shpuker 09/08/2017 at 01:55

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So....what if I plan to add an exhaust, coilovers and wheels? Or are you talking extensive mods like tune and FMIC?

AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC > Steve in Manhattan 09/08/2017 at 01:56

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That’s great to hear. The temptation is growing stronger now. How does he like driving it on the highway? The BRZ is fun but on the highway it’s kind of horrible.

AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC > AM3R, lost another burner 09/08/2017 at 01:59

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Well, if you insist.

How has your 335i’s reliability been? Have you modified it? Which 335i do you have (f3x, e9x)?

Yes, I do DIY. How many specialty tools do you really need? I’ve heard they need some specialty tools for certain repairs but I’m not convinced they’re that commonly needed?

Steve in Manhattan > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 09/08/2017 at 02:20

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Haven’t talked directly to him, but I think one of the main draws for him is that all 3 of his kids and his wife can’t drive a stick. That car is his, and his alone.

PG; the scalpel wielder > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 09/08/2017 at 02:39

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I did diy with a friend. I just did it after it reached about 50k miles. It’s not that big if a deal if you don’t. Some people never do it. You do notice improved throttle response etc. Want blasting us basically blasting walnut shells at the intake valves whilst simultaneously vacuumming them.many YouTube videos. Needed on vw and Audi cars too because if direct injection. Took us about 3 hours to do end to finish. Really over exaggerated issue. The thing with these cars is how much info there is available on the net.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 09/08/2017 at 05:41

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If you are used to $100/year maintenance, it’s a shock.

Expect about $250-1000 a year depending on what needs doing. Like replacement of plastic cooling system parts.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 09/08/2017 at 06:40

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Very reliable.

Never owned a bike...

nerd_racing > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 09/08/2017 at 07:02

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15k miles annually. The only issue I had with mine (other than lifter tick that didn’t hurt anything, just annoying) was the oil filter housing seal leaked onto the serpentine belt and the alternator. Oh and I had to replace 2 ignition coils. I got lifetime parts from autozone and they worked excellent. I had it for 3 years.

shpuker > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 09/08/2017 at 09:59

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Basically the logic (In my opinion at least) goes like this

If you want to do visual mods/exhaust/suspension, get a base 135i.

If you might throw a tune on it but will otherwise leave it 95%+ stock, then consider the 135is.

Essentially the s “package” is a wheels, suspension, exhaust, and tune kit added onto the normal 135i. They’re notably more aggressive though and they really don’t drive a whole lot like a stock 135i.

E90M3 > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 09/08/2017 at 10:13

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I had a 128i, my dad has a 135is.

It is noticeable if you’re used to driving an M car, the M3 obviously has an LSD. I don’t think it detracts from the car much at all, it really isn’t that noticeable. I mean if you’re really pushing it, maybe, but for the most part it’s all good. That said, if I was going to get a 135i/335i, I’d probably want to put an LSD in it at some point. Which I wouldn’t get a 335i, I’d get a 335d and put and LSD in that.

AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC > nerd_racing 09/08/2017 at 12:52

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We’re you able to DIY the ignition coils? I’ve heard nightmares about ignition coils on other cars.

AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC > PG; the scalpel wielder 09/08/2017 at 12:53

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I didn’t think that would be as literal as it was. How did you get walnut shells?

AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 09/08/2017 at 12:56

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That’s a pretty big range. Although not bad. Are you including tires with that 1000?

AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 09/08/2017 at 12:56

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Well this is awkward.

AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC > Steve in Manhattan 09/08/2017 at 12:57

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That’s pretty much one of the reasons I like having a manual. It’s mine.

AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC > E90M3 09/08/2017 at 12:59

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Well, I’m sold. You’ve successfully convinced me on an M3 and a 1-series.

E90M3 > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 09/08/2017 at 13:00

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‘Tis a pretty great combo.

Steve in Manhattan > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 09/08/2017 at 13:01

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And remains the best anti theft device.

AM3R, lost another burner > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 09/08/2017 at 13:15

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It’s been great. I have about 83k on it right now, and under my ownership all I’ve done is replace the charge pipe (got an aftermarket one that isn’t garbage plastic like OEM). I change the oil every 3-5k, BMW keeps sending me coupons for $59 oil changes which is just icing on the cake. Whoever had the car before me (from new to 50k) had some reliability issues while it was under warranty. The car had its HPFP replaced a few times, but now has the newest one which seems to be very reliable as I haven’t had any issues with it, so shoutout to the original owner for taking care of that haha

DIY’s aren’t too hard with this car. I helped my brother replace the crankshaft sensor on his E90 328i (similar DIY to 335i) and didn’t use any special tools or anything. I have a special spark plug socket that I used to change the spark plugs. Since I haven’t had too many issues, I haven’t spent too much time under the hood.

My car is stock besides the charge pipe. I put a set of 219m’s on with sticky tires. I’m about to do the PE exhaust mod and I’m thinking about getting an intercooler and a tune, but honestly I’m totally satisfied with the current power levels. Oh yeah, it’s an E92 335i btw. I have the n54 engine.

I have m3 control arms and got a custom alignment done. This, combined with my m-sport suspension makes the car a dream to daily drive. It handles great, and after getting good tires (not runflats) I don’t mind the ride at all.

I just wrote this real quick while eating lunch, keep the questions coming!

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 09/08/2017 at 13:17

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Quite

nerd_racing > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 09/08/2017 at 13:37

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Yes, it was as easy as taking off the cabin air filter and the small cowl. then 4 screws holding on the plastic engine cover. They just snap on and have one wire clip. If you can remove plastic covers and spark plugs you can diy for sure. The coils were pretty inexpensive if you change them one by one. I put a fresh set of NGKs in mine. I would note, do not get the cheap coils off rockauto. I got them and did all 6 when I did the plugs. They were absolute garbage and failed less than 6 months later. I put back in the OE ones minus the original one that acted up and got replacements from Autozone. Lifetime warranty so once you change them one, you’re set for life.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 09/08/2017 at 13:53

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A non M BMW with a manual transmission and M54 cooling system in good order could be run for about $200/year for oil, filter, and tire rotation. If you have to replace cooling system parts (every 60-70K miles or so), then you are at about $600 for most models. If you have to do cooling system and transmission and diff fluid, then you are at about $1000.

M cars and certain non M engines will have additional costs. M engines normally require valve adjustment services every 25K miles or so, and some of the Valvetronic engines have certain foibles.

AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC > AM3R, lost another burner 09/08/2017 at 17:34

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This is interesting now. I do really like the e9x as well. But I also do like the 1-series since it’s more compact and looks like good value for money. Is yours a manual? How is the fuel economy? What should one look for when inspecting a 335i?

Textured Soy Protein > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 09/08/2017 at 21:59

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My 135is was basically maintenance free aside from oil changes because I leased it and didn’t put a ton of miles on it before I turned it in. My 335xi I bought used and it’s modded. Any N54 or N55 BMW will tend to go through things like water pumps, fuel pumps, ignition coils, etc at a slightly faster rate than normal cars from the likes of Toyota and Honda. But they’re not going to sink you financially. It’s not like a Ferrari or something. Just understand that you might spend more to maintain it than some other mainstream cars. If you’re concerned about reliability, the single turbo on the N55 is much more trouble free then the twin turbos on the N54. But the other stuff I mentioned is pretty similar either way.

AM3R, lost another burner > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 09/08/2017 at 23:26

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Yeah, mine is a manual. Definitely go for a 6MT. The auto isn’t bad, but that just takes away so much fun from the car. You HAVE to get a 6MT, especially if you’ll be tuning the car. I never really feel like my E92 is too big, and it’s nice having usable rear seats. The 1er is a nice car, and can usually be found a little cheaper.

Whichever you get, make sure it has the sports package or M-sport package. Worth it for the seats, steering wheel, suspension, and in the case of the m-sport, the bumpers. ALSO, not sure for the 135i, but 335i’s with the sport package got the oil cooler, which helps a lot. An easy way to check is to look in the wheel-well of the passenger side front wheel. You should see the oil cooler there if it is equipped with one.

In city/suburban driving I average 18.5mpg according to the computer. I crack 30mpg on the highway if I drive smart. Not bad at all IMO for the performance level.

Service records would be the best thing to look at. Find a car with good service records. Visually inspect it. There’s a few places that may leak with age/high mileage (BMW thing). Oil filter housing gasket. Valve cover gasket. Make sure it got regular oil changes. Has it been tuned/modified before? Is it on the original HPFP? There’s also the airbag recall out on them now.

MOST IMPORTANT! Get a PPI on any cars that you are really interested in. That, along with service records, should give you good confidence.

What are you looking to spend? That could help see what kind of 1ers/3ers you’d be looking at.

Pic above I just took as I left the gym. Still love the car!

AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC > AM3R, lost another burner 09/09/2017 at 02:26

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Yep, my plan is to get the 6MT since I always hear stories about how BMW MTs are sublime. I want to experience it.

If I were to modify it with coilovers and wheels would the M-sport really matter? I mean the steering wheel and seats sound nice but would those two things alone be worth it? I quite like the M-sport steering wheels but that should be cheaper to swap than getting an M-trim?

PPI is a must. I’d rather spend a few hundred and know I’m getting a solid car than save a few hundred and spend several thousand getting it in working order.

I’m hoping to pay off the BRZ and then maybe sell it/trade it in for a used 1/3-series. So let’s say around 15k? To get 4-5k back?

What was your experience with CPO? Do you know what the max age for CPOs are?

AM3R, lost another burner > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 09/09/2017 at 15:58

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My car had just got off its CPO warranty before I bought it. I’m not sure what the age is, but I think all E9x’s except the 2013's are out of warranty. The HPFP for all have a 10 year 120k warranty IIRC. There’s also some kind of warranty on injectors for certain 335i’s.

IMO the sport package is worth it. Regular sport package cars don’t really command a premium, so there’s really no reason to pass up on it. I love the seats, and the non sport steering wheel just isn’t as good IMO. M-sports go for a little higher, but I think the price increase is justified. I want to swap some m-sport bumpers onto my car, they just look so good.

One thing I will say, coming from a BRZ I’m not sure how you’ll feel about the bmw shifter. The throw is wayyyy longer and it’s more... notchy i’d say. I’ve driven my friends FRS and I prefer the BMW clutch, but stock for stock, his shifter and throw was nicer. So short! But that’s easily fixed with a shorter knob or a short shift kit in the BMW.

AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC > AM3R, lost another burner 09/09/2017 at 16:46

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Interesting. I did not know about the HPFP warranty. Looks like I have some more research and shopping to do next year.

My BRZ has a notchy shifter. It’s clunky when getting into gear. I’m really curious how the clutch is on the BMW. The BRZ has the engagement point near the top and it’s not that great for traffic. Did you do the short shifter? Or are you still in the stock shifter?

AM3R, lost another burner > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 09/09/2017 at 16:50

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The clutch in the BMW isn’t as heavy, and the engagement point is lower down. It’s very easy to drive in traffic. Car has a big amount of torque. Another nice thing is that you have enough power to just gas it in 6th and pass someone on the highway, it’s awesome.

I still have the stock shifter. Got a weighted, slightly shorter ZHP shift knob in my cart from FCP euro. Just need to pull the plug.

Oh, fcp euro has a lifetime warranty on parts, so if you end up getting a BMW, buy from them. They even fuckin cover OIL.

AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC > AM3R, lost another burner 09/09/2017 at 17:10

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Well I’m sold. Looks like it’ll happen in a year. What do you think of EAS’ prices?

AM3R, lost another burner > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 09/09/2017 at 17:36

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Not bad, but definitely on the higher end. They are extremely reputable though, and they have everything. It’s pretty easy to find good deals tho, just do some research on specific parts and join a forum. I PM’d a reputable vendor on e90post about some coilovers and they offered me a price for PSS coilovers like $150 cheaper shipped than I could find anywhere else online.